*Note: Because my responses were too long to place in comments on the original post, and because of the ever growing Hebrew Roots movement, I am placing some posts here to view instead. The original post can be found at the link below. Any additional comments on the topic are welcome.
Nancy's comment:
Dear Judie
I understand why you write what you do. I defended the same arguments for years.
Not anymore. The blinders are slowly coming off.
I have some responses for you.
What do you do with 2 Timothy 3:16 “16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.”
All Scripture means Torah (first five books of the Bible) and the complete Tanakh (the whole “Old” Testament). For you see, the “New” Testament had not yet been written when Paul wrote this….yet.
So if this verse says ALL Scripture is given by inspiration of God and is profitable for DOCTRINE….how do YOU undo that DOCTRINE?
For instance,
Exodus 20:8“Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.”
He never, ever changed this. If He did, please show me where GOD changed it, or even JESUS changed it.
Or how about the fact that God tells us we can not ADD to His Word (or change it!). So why do you think it is ok to change the Saturday Sabbath to Sunday?
Deuteronomy 4:2 “2 You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take from it, that you may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.”
If you check history is what Constantine and his political, anti-semitic forces that changed the Sabbath to Sunday. So that “Christians” would not in any way identify with Jews. Of course, it is all very complicated how everything changed. But, the fact is it did! And God NEVER gave any permission to change HIS WORD. HE IS UNCHANGING!
Lastly, (oh yes I could write pages)…..read this Isaiah verse. There are some beautiful promises for the people of God who honor the Sabbath (Saturday 7th day).
Isaiah 56:5-7
5 Even to them I will give in My house
And within My walls a place and a name
Better than that of sons and daughters;
I will give them[a] an everlasting name
That shall not be cut off.
6 “Also the sons of the foreigner
Who join themselves to the LORD, to serve Him,
And to love the name of the LORD, to be His servants—
Everyone who keeps from defiling the Sabbath,
And holds fast My covenant—
7 Even them I will bring to My holy mountain,
And make them joyful in My house of prayer.
Their burnt offerings and their sacrifices
Will be accepted on My altar;
For My house shall be called a house of prayer for all nations.”
Quick review. God told us to honor the Sabbath and keep it holy. You believe in the 10 Commandments don’t you? Not to murder, steal, commit adultery. And keep the Sabbath holy. Simple.
Paul tells us in Timothy that ALL Scripture is for doctrine.
God tells us NEVER TO ADD to His Word.
Judie when you begin to understand that God really wants to spend this very special day with you, in fact He set it apart just for you and Him. Your life will change! You will feel so good that you are obeying Him! And He will draw you close!
And that’s just the beginning of discovery of His true Word. There is so much more.
My friend sent me your link, and I had to respond. What you are saying is so untrue. Please pray and ask God to show the real Truth. It will set you free!
Shalom
Nancy
PS. Jesus honored the Sabbath (Saturday), so did the apostles, Paul and the first “church”. They would meet in the Temple and break bread together and pray. Every Sabbath. Of course. Why would they want to disobey God?
My response:
Hi Nancy,
Thank you for visiting my blog, I appreciate your comments and will try to clarify what I believe scripture teaches as clearly as I can.
In response to your question on 2 Timothy 3:16, let me say that Paul was speaking to Timothy here who was under the New Covenant of GRACE, not those who were under the law of the Old Testament. When interpreting scripture it's imperative to keep all things in proper context, i.e., who was the writer speaking to, what was the main point he was trying to make, what did he say before and after, etc. The verses before and after the 16th verse you highlight are as follows:
"But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them; And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works"
(2 Tim. 3:15-17)
As you can see, Paul was clearly instructing Timothy to CONTINUE in what he had learned from him, not from the Torah or the Tanakh. In verse 15 he goes on to say that the holy scriptures make one wise unto the salvation that is through FAITH in Christ Jesus, not in any particular "doctrine".
Consequently, in verse 16 Paul is simply stating that ALL scripture is inspired by God and therefore profitable for the believers' growth and correction.
That said, this is not at all a case of myself or anyone else seeking to "undo" any doctrine, better stated, it is merely an attempt to properly divide and interpret the true meaning of scripture. We must understand that Jesus came to fulfill the law and give us a NEW Covenant...the church began in the Book of Acts and is completely separate from the Old Covenant that preceded the coming of Christ.
The Old Covenant contained "types and shadows" of the Savior to come, so it definitely has its place, but the New Covenant is what the Christian follows. As believers we are not subject to or under the "Jewish law", as Paul made extremely clear in the books of Romans, Galatians, et al. A thorough study of Romans and Galatians will go a long way in bringing great clarity on these matters.
Keeping it very plain and simple, the bottom line is that we are NOT Israel, we are the body of Christ, the Church of the living God, and we are under the dispensation of grace not law - that is what makes all the difference as to what we are to believe, follow, and practice.
The Old Covenant with its types and shadows is Christ concealed, whereas, the New Covenant is Christ revealed. The OT is a book of "examples" for the Church, not instructions...otherwise, we could ignore Jesus' command to "love our enemies" and instead pick up our swords and go out and slay them! Yes, things have changed.
In the book of Hebrews it states that Jesus came to give us a BETTER covenant "By so much was Jesus made a surety of a better covenant" (Heb. 7:22), so in this sense God did indeed "change" how He deals with man. God never changes in His character, that's correct, but He does at times change in His methods.
As we can plainly see God's dealings with man under the law was definitely different than His dealings with man under grace. You can also look at Heb. 8:6 and Heb. 12:24 for further confirmation that we are now under a new and better covenant, thank the Lord! I think it's also interesting to note that these particular scriptures are found in the book that was written to the Hebrews.
Please understand that the "keeping of the sabbath" was given to ISRAEL alone and was established in the Old Covenant as a day of REST not a day of worship, many confuse these facts or simply neglect to mention them.
"And the LORD spoke to Moses, saying, Speak you also to the children of Israel, saying, Truly my sabbaths you shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that you may know that I am the LORD that does sanctify you. You shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy to you: every one that defiles it shall surely be put to death: for whoever does any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people. Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whoever does any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death. Why the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant. It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed". (Ex. 31:12-17).
There also were many laws around keeping the sabbath such as - there was to be no spark lit (therefore, no cooking), a chair couldn't be moved across the room (considered work), the Israelites could not go more than a mile from home, etc. Do you follow all these things in your attempt to "keep the sabbath"? If not, do you agree that anyone who breaks these laws should be put to death, as the above scripture states? The thing is, we cannot just take some parts of the scripture to follow and leave the inconvenient parts out, doesn't work that way. If we choose to try and follow the "law" we must keep it ALL or suffer the consequences.
And yes, the keeping of any ONE particular day was changed in the New Testament as the scriptures below clearly show...
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." (Co. 2:16);
"But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage? Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years. I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain". (Gal. 4:9,10).
"One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind. He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it. He that eateth, eateth to the Lord, for he giveth God thanks; and he that eateth not, to the Lord he eateth not, and giveth God thanks. For none of us liveth to himself, and no man dieth to himself. For whether we live, we live unto the Lord; and whether we die, we die unto the Lord: whether we live therefore, or die, we are the Lord's." (Rom. 14:5-8)
"And it came to pass, that he went through the corn fields on the sabbath day; and his disciples began, as they went, to pluck the ears of corn. And the Pharisees said to him, Behold, why do they on the sabbath day that which is not lawful? And he said to them, Have you never read what David did, when he had need, and was an hungered, he, and they that were with him? How he went into the house of God in the days of Abiathar the high priest, and did eat the show bread, which is not lawful to eat but for the priests, and gave also to them which were with him? And he said to them, The sabbath was made for man, and not man for the sabbath: Therefore the Son of man is Lord also of the sabbath". (Mk. 2:23-28)
In regard to worshipping on Sunday, actually, you have to go back a bit further in history than Constantine...back to the early church as a matter of fact - the disciples met on the FIRST day of the week NOT the seventh, so changing the day happened way before Constantine came into the picture a few centuries later.
God told the Israelites to keep the sabbath, not the Church. Sabbath keeping and circumcision were commands given to the Jews alone, never to the church or the Gentiles.
I believe scripture teaches us to follow and obey the commands of Jesus given to the New Testament believer, which in truth, far surpass the 10 Commandments given under the law.
Also, please note that the 4th commandment was the only one that was not carried over into the New Testament, you will never find that you must keep a certain day in the NT, in fact you find the opposite. Simply put, you cannot make a NT doctrine out of something only taught or mentioned in the OT.
You are correct in saying that we should never ADD to God's Word, and by adding LAW to GRACE, the book of Galatians clearly says that those who do such things have fallen from grace, dangerous place to be...
"Stand fast therefore in the liberty with which Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage. Behold, I Paul say to you, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. Christ is become of no effect to you, whoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace. For we through the Spirit wait for the hope of righteousness by faith. For in Jesus Christ neither circumcision avails any thing, nor uncircumcision; but faith which works by love". (Gal. 5:1-6)
You see, Nancy, my trust and faith is in Christ ALONE, not in any particular day, doctrine, or tradition. HE already has changed my life, drawn me close to Him, and set me free, so I am lacking nothing by the mere "keeping of a day".
HE alone is my sabbath, and my rest, because in myself I am imperfect and could NEVER keep all the commandments blamelessly (as the law demands) which is why He had to do it for me! I thank God that I am MADE RIGHTEOUS in HIM, not by any works that I do. It must be quite frustrating to always be "trying" to "measure up." And tell me, how does one ever know when they've done ENOUGH to truly please God? That my friend is religion, the word itself means "a return to bondage", no thanks, I prefer God's plan of salvation by GRACE, through FAITH in the finished work of Christ. Jesus didn't come to bring more religion, He came to bring us into a personal relationship with Himself. TRUE Christianity really is the very antithesis of religion, it is totally "other"!
In closing, let me say that I am under no illusion that I could ever do enough to fully please God, if I could Christ would not have had to shed His blood for me. The Gospel means "good news", and the good news is that CHRIST PAID IT ALL so we could now "cease from our own works" and REST in HIM and His righteousness alone. Now, THAT, is good news!
Nancy, you said that what I say is untrue, but I'm afraid that you are the one who is mistaken, and sadly, your faith is apparently misplaced. The truth and the rest you speak about is NOT found in a day, but rather in a PERSON - the Lord Jesus Christ! It's all about what JESUS did at the Cross not what any of us can DO to impress God or others. Make no mistake, the Lord HATES self-righteousness! And just as he honored and received Abraham because of his FAITH (not works), so does He also honor those who have no confidence in the flesh (their own righteousness) but rather fully place their trust and faith in the righteousness of His Son. THAT, and that alone, is what pleases the Lord.
As scripture says, the "just shall live by FAITH" and "without FAITH it is impossible to please Him". This is what the true Christian life entails, not just a bunch of rules and dogma.
I sincerely pray that the Lord will open the eyes of your understanding to these precious truths, Nancy, and that you will fully receive the good news of the Gospel that alone can save your soul. When Jesus said "It is FINISHED", that's exactly what He meant! Don't look for rest in a day or a doctrine, seek to rest in Him and He will surely work His righteousness in and through your life.
Lastly, in response to your PS - they did not meet in the Temple, Paul DEBATED in the Temple, because of course there were no church buildings at that time. The early church met in HOMES not in the Jewish Temple.
Shalom to you also!
In His love,
Judie
Additional comments/responses:
My Response:
Hi Dot,
Thank you for your comment but I believe you're taking the verses you mentioned out of their proper context.
If you begin reading at the beginning of Chapter 15 (see below) you'll see that the men teaching about keeping the law were false teachers, i.e., judiazers. These men had infiltrated the early church by trying to refute Paul's message of grace through FAITH, by ADDING the "law of Moses" as an additional requirement for salvation. These same false teachings have again infiltrated the church with the erroneous legalistic teachings taught by the Hebrew Roots movement of today.
I think it's interesting to note that these teachings attempted to corrupt the true message of the Cross with its focus on the FINISHED work of Christ, at the church's inception. Now, the same identical attack on this precious truth of salvation by Grace alone, is attempting to distort and corrupt God's message of GRACE in the last days church as well. It goes to show that as sly and insidious as our enemy is, his strategies and tactics rarely change.
That said, we can clearly see in the first 11 verses of Acts 15 that it was the false sect of Pharisees (NOT James) that had come to teach about keeping the law of Moses. Because of these judiazers, both then and now, religious yokes of BONDAGE, as stated in verse 10, are being placed on people. Please know that individuals that teach and promote these false doctrines that serve to corrupt the true Gospel message will certainly answer to God for it one day, since scripture plainly teaches that adding LAW to GRACE is a very dangerous thing to do.
To help further clarify what I'm trying to explain I've emphasized key points in the scripture below:
ACTS 15:1-11 And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said, Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved. 2 When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question. 3 And being brought on their way by the church, they passed through Phenice and Samaria, declaring the conversion of the Gentiles: and they caused great joy unto all the brethren. 4 And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received of the church, and of the apostles and elders, and they declared all things that God had done with them. 5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter. 7 And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe. 8 And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness, giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us; 9 And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. 10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
Now, skipping down to the verses you mentioned:
18 Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world. 19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood. 21 For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.
24 Forasmuch as we have heard, that certain which went out from us have troubled you with words, subverting your souls, saying, Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: 25 It seemed good unto us, being assembled with one accord, to send chosen men unto you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, 26 Men that have hazarded their lives for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. 27 We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you the same things by mouth. 28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well.
In verse 19 James says his sentence (i.e., conclusion of the matter) is that the Gentiles should not be "troubled" to keep the Jewish law, but rather for them to simply abstain from idols, fornication, and blood.
As far as verse 21, all James was saying was that anyone who wanted to LEARN about the law of Moses could easily do so by attending the synagogue where it was taught on the Sabbath.
Verse 24 talks about how these "certain men" (pharisees) were troubling the young church and subverting their souls. To subvert something is to distort and corrupt...to overturn or overthrow the "foundation" of something.
Consequently, James was hardly endorsing ANY of these false teachings that were telling people that the law of Moses must continue to be kept, on the contrary, he clearly stated that they gave NO such commandment.
The final admonition made at the Council in verse 29, was again stated that it would be sufficient if the new believers simply abstained from meats offered to idols, and from fornication and blood. That is FAR from teaching believers to KEEP the whole "law of Moses," which of course, none of us can possibly do anyway.
In closing, Dot, I sincerely pray that the Lord opens the eyes of your (and others in the HRM) understanding to rightly divide the word of truth which is able to save the soul.
In His love,
Judie
Original post: TRUTH MATTERS: The Danger of the Hebrew Roots Movement http://dispellingthedeception.blogspot.com/2009/07/danger-of-hebrew-roots-movement.html#ixzz29XwfamEX
Posts
Acts 15:230-21
Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.